I know its beating a dead horse, but I feel I have to say it. DEFRAG in Vista really sucks the big one. Using XP I could defrag my drive in about 30 min, Vista (this is no joke) for the very same drive took over 5 1/2 hrs, this is somewhat alarming to say the least. I started defrag, waited about 45 min, then went to Wal-Mart (that is another experience in itself, and somewhat time consuming), I was there just over an hour and a half, then went to the bank made out a deposit slip, stood in line (about 30 min), then went to the groceries store (another hour), came home put the dogs out to do their business, changed my monkey's diaper, let the dogs back in, fed them, vacuumed the floor, and several other things. Still almost 6 hours later defrag still running, it was time for bed at that point, couldn't tell how long it finally took. I do know that if this is the best Vista can do with Defrag, I'd be MUCH better off with Xp, not to mention the many more problems with Vista. I really hope SP1 will make some drastic improvements on this and many other issues. My opinion is that Vista was not really ready for public distribution, its more like something you would see in about midway beta.
More venting, I feel no better now than when I started this thread.

I knew there were going to be a lot of aggravations connected with Vista right now, so I dual booot with xp as well. Just run defrag at 1200 am and turn it off when you get up. I don't think defragging is something you need to do all the time anyway
"Terry Scott" wrote:

Defragging does take a long time, but it doesn't need to be done on a regular basis - one a month is about average. You could, of course, start the defrag process late at night and let it work through the night. Alternatively you could use defrag from an elevated command prompt. (click start>all programs>accessories. Right click on Command Prompt and the choose 'run as administrator' when the command prompt window opens type 'defrag c:' (without the quotes) or another options is to use an alternative defragmenation application such as PerfectDisk. PerfectDisk is the one that i use.
John Barnett MVP Associate Expert Windows - Shell/User
Web: xphelpandsupport.mvps.org Web: vistasupport.mvps.org
The information in this mail/post is supplied "as is". No warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, is made in relation to the accuracy, reliability or content of this mail/post. The Author shall not be liable for any direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages arising out of the use of, or inability to use, information or opinions expressed in this mail/post..
"Terry Scott"

Terry Scott spake thusly on 2/24/2007 12:19 PM:

Lucky you. It took me *hours* in XP to defrag with the Windows defragger. I only tried it once. Normally I used Speed Disk (part of Norton Systemworks) which did it many times faster.
Then I swore off Norton (which is why I used Windows defragger one time and one time only).
Your best bet is a third party defragger. I highly recommend Raxco PerfectDisk (raxco.com). A very close second is Diskeeper (diskeeper.com).
Scott angrykeyboarder.com
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.

Terry Scott wrote:

I suppose my question is why are you - and so many other people for that matter - so obsessed with defragging your hard disk?
I very rarely run defrag in XP, and I don't even think about it on my apple laptop at all.
The way Microsoft manage drive fragmentation has changed in Vista, and the changes and the reasons for them have been well documented in these newsgroups if you want to have a look. To be honest, I really wouldn't worry about it. You presumably didn't buy a computer in order to sit there obsessing over drive fragmentation so why not put this issue to one side and move on. What did you buy the computer to do? Can you perform that reason for purchasing a computer adequately on Vista, or not?

Defragmentation is over-rated. The benefits are mostly placebo. Maybe once a quarter is beneficial.
"Robert Moir"

Robert Moir spake thusly on 2/24/2007 2:05 PM:

"Obsessed" is a rather strong term, don't you think?

Give it a try, you just might find it speeds up file and application access. As far as frequency goes, there is no set rule. The recommendations are tied to your usage. Use your computer a lot? Defrag once a or twice a week. Use it very little? Defrag once every month or two.
As far as the Mac goes, it's a different file system (HFS+ vs NTFS). NTFS fragments more than others. I never think about it in Linux either.

All MS has done is set it to run weekly as a task by default. MS apparently thinks defragmentaion is important enough to do this.

Let it go to long and you'll find your Windows gets increasingly slower and applications start to hang or crash regularly.
I had a friend who didn't defrag ever defrag her drive. She'd had her computer (running XP) for over a year and was having problems. When I looked her drive was 40% fragmented which is a LOT. I defragged it for her and it took over 24 hours. But once it was done, you saw a VAST impovement in speed and crashes/hangs went away.
Scott angrykeyboarder.com
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/Terry Scott/ said:

Each time defrag runs it should take less time. It should run automatically once a week - in the middle of the night, if the PC is on - unless you change its schedule. Let it do its thing, and give it no further thought.

"Scott"

In the days of DOS and FAT16 or FAT32, defragging made a big difference in performance, but most people who did defrag did it more often than necessary. With WinXP on NTFS I defrag every year or two and never notice any difference in performance. I'll admit that I haven't bothered with defragging Vista yet, but It's only been a year or so since my first usable install.
Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM fjsmjs.com Answer in newsgroup. Don't expect an answer to email.

Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM spake thusly on 2/24/2007 3:25 PM:

That is really odd, considering it's set in Vista by to defrag once a week by default.
Scott angrykeyboarder.com
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.

Just a thought..Try Diskeeper from diskeeper.com fully supported for vista and the longest I ever saw diskeeper take on my computer was 45seconds to a minute....fully defragged all drives.Very well known and awesome program...I have been running it since back in the days of 98 and that was at least 8yrs...free download to try.....BUY IT you will not regret it !!...........Drew
"Terry Scott"

I use "AusLogics Disk Defrag v1.0" It's FREE!! User friendly and fast in Vista.
Auslogics Disk Defrag auslogics.com/index.php
"Terry Scott"

Bobby wrote:

Somewhere between quarterly and monthly would be reasonable for a manual defrag (though I'd edge more towards quarterly, as you say). Anything more than that then either someone's not using their machine in a typical way or they're taken in by the placebo effect as you say.

Scott wrote:

Not really when someone decries the whole OS as useless and suggests the whole thing should still be in beta because defrag.exe dared to change the way it worked between versions of the operating system.

I'm very well aware of how defrag works and what it does, thank you. I'd speculate that I'm far more aware than someone who thinks a typical user who 'uses their machine a lot' will really see a definite benefit from running the defrag program twice a week - especially on Vista where I understand Microsoft have a weekly background task set to run it once a week to do a little tidying up as it is.

I honestly don't see where you get this idea from. How frequently a computer is used will have little to no bearing on how often fragmentation of the files on the hard disk is likely to have a noticable impact on performance. How full the disk is generally and _how_ it is used will be of far more importance; someone who uses their computer once a week to work with very large datasets stored in many small files will probably see more fragmentation than someone who uses their computer daily to check hotmail.

Actually, they've done a little more than that. Sadly, I can't find the link at the moment but there is a blog that deals with file system issues from the team behind this sort of stuff on Vista which is quite interesting.

Maybe - but how long is "too long" exactly. And I still assert that the user might use their time on the computer far more productively if they get on with what they purchased it for rather than obsessing over odd system utilities. Especially when Microsoft have scheduled a defrag task to run weekly anyway, as you note.

Well once a year is probably too long to go without some kind of system maintenance, that's for sure. I suggest quarterly runs for most "average" home users on a well specified machine. By the way, did you _only_ run defrag? Or did you check everything was updated, clear out temporary files, maybe even run chkdsk and generally tidy up the system?
Again, I'm quite happy to put my reputation (such as it is) down and say that doing a "proper" maintenance cycle where you do all these things quarterly is going to be better for most people than just running defrag twice a week as you suggest, let alone timing it as the original poster seems to favour. Would a car that gets serviced properly every 6 to 12 months be more or less likely to run better than a car whose owner tops up the windscreen washer fluid or maybe the oil daily but doesn't perform any other routine maintenance tasks?
Robert Moir rhymeswithgeek.com

You couldn't make enough changes in your operating system to warrant a weekly defrag.

Regards,
Richard Urban Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User (For email, remove the obvious from my address)
Quote from George Ankner: If you knew as much as you think you know, You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

"Scott"

The only really decent Defrag Program I've encountered is PerfectDisk.
You can buy it on the Web.
Really intelligent program. Beautifully designed, very logical interface functions and text in windows is sharp, cogent and intelligent.
Plus it's FAST.
No, I have no financial interest in it or relatives who work there. <g>
The Defrag programs in all the versions of Windows I've seen are slow, clumsy and primitive by comparison.
DSH

Recte:
The only really decent Defrag Program I've encountered is PerfectDisk.
You can buy it on the Web.
Really intelligent program. Beautifully designed, very logical interface functions are well chosen and parsed, while text in windows is sharp, cogent and intelligent.
Plus it's FAST.
No, I have no financial interest in it or relatives who work there. <g>
The Defrag programs in all the versions of Windows I've seen are slow, clumsy and primitive by comparison.
DSH

I really beg to differ, since this is a NEW operating system and many manufactures are trying (with not much success as I see it) to do updates regarding software and hardware as well, there are many installs that must to be done in a short period of time if you want the system to run in a half way decent condition. Therefore, there are files being installed and deleted which adds to the fragmentation of a drive. Its my opinion as well as Microsoft's (referring to an earlier version, I believe was Windows 95) that Defrag be done on a more frequent basis. I may be wrong but have not seen (in any versions since) any changes to that theory, or at least none made by Microsoft to my knowledge. If in fact you go back to prior versions, do a defrag, on the drives I do believe you'll notice a difference not only in the access times, but the amount of time the HDD is actually running (kinda goes together). This allows for the HDD to last longer since it isn't running constantly, as well as allows it to get to the program you are trying to start at a much faster rate. Granted with Vista you'll probably never notice this difference since the defrag program is crap to start with and doesn't appear (in my opinion and my opinion only) to being doing anything but causing the HDD to constantly run without any compensation. Looks to me like Microsoft may have a deal with some of the HDD producers that they will wear out a drive, the user has to replace it, therefore the HDD company makes money for the drive, then you have to buy another copy of Vista, humm who's the loser here...Think about it.
All of the opinions expressed here are my own, I have been running windows software since Bill actually started releasing it. I like windows software and always have, heck I even like getting one of my old AT's out of the closet and just doing a few DOS commands for the heck of it.

"Richard Urban"

So, after that VERY long-winded peroration - how often do you defrag and how often do your HDD's last on average?
DSH
"Terry Scott"

As I said. You couldn't make enough changes in the operating system in a week to warrant a weekly defrag.
All of what you mentioned will not slow down the operating system one whit.

Regards,
Richard Urban Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User (For email, remove the obvious from my address)
Quote from George Ankner: If you knew as much as you think you know, You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

"Terry Scott"

Terry:
I use Perfect Disk v8 It is a full feature product and is fast.
For an excellent Vista vs. PDisk v8 comparison: raxco.com/products/perfectdisk2k/comparevista.cfm

Recte:
So, after that VERY long-winded peroration - how often do you defrag and how long do your HDD's last on average?
DSH
"Terry Scott"

D. Spencer Hines wrote:

But probably ample for most home users.
I _do_ specify perfectdisk for use on servers though. It's a great product.

Terry Scott wrote:

Yes, after a fresh install of the OS and applications is a good time to run a manual defrag. However, on a decent disk with lots of room the OS will continue to run in a more than "half way" decent condition - fragmentation shouldn't be that bad on a roomy disk and it isn't quite the system performance killer that you seem to think. I'm not saying it can't be a factor in poor performance, but you seem to have even the slightest bit of file fragmentation playing a starring role in your computer magically turning into a paperweight, and that simply isn't the case!

Of course this increase in time taken is nothing to do with the fact that a 4GB drive was generous in the Win 95 days and a 400Gb disk isn't even the largest size available today.
And how often the defrag task is ran isn't terribly important. It could be ran 20 times a day but if there isn't anything for it to do then running it more times than is needed will not do anything except waste your time.

Sheesh and some people think *I* have a low opinion of Microsoft at the moment! Do let us know when you take off the tin foil cap and start thinking about it.

You have a copy of Altair basic? That's pretty cool. Ever considered putting it up on ebay? Or donating it to a computer museum?
Robert Moir rhymeswithgeek.com

I would recommend once a month, and the duration of this process depends on how big of your hard drive or partition. I like to add my 2 cents if I may, gradually slowing down your computer is not due to just fragmentation of your hard drive, but also due to bunch of garbages left behind by programs programmed by lazy programmers of whom only care about "Installation" NOT "Uninstallation". Having said that, I also recommend install some sort of Uninstaller that will agressivelly remove 95% if not more of the garbages.
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:52:49 -0500, "Richard Urban" spake thusly:

I wonder if the folks who write for the popular computer magazines get kickacks from people at Racxo, Diskeeper and Perfect Disk? Scott angrykeyboarder.com
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:52:28 -0000, "Robert Moir" spake thusly:

Now you're talking about one person. Your original statement was referring to more than one person.

Apparently so.........

Shrooms!

There's no single answer to that. It depends on usage.

I agree. That's why I schedule it and forget it.

I guess I've been lead down by the garden path by computer magazine columnists and PC Utility advertisements.
I can't speak for Vista, but from what I've read previously, Windows defrag utility did a "fair" job at defregging. The defrag utilities from people like Raxco, Diskeeper and Symantec take it farther by moving frequently accessed files to where they can be most quickly accessed and so forth. There are other things they do that Windows won't do but I can't recall them at the moment.

My typical routine is to run chkdsk once a week as well (or whoever Windows starts acting up on me). And yes I clear out temporary files regularly. In the past I've used the disk cleanup utility in XP although I've found that it seemed to get confused as to where temporary files were located (particularly IE cache) and neglect to delete some of them.
So every so often I'd delete them manually.
And I used to run a registry cleaner utility (part of Norton SyttemWorks) before I a) learned cleared up all my "problems" and then created new ones and b) decided Symantec is the root of all evil. Now I only use such measures when desperate with different software.

You keep harping on *twice*. I said "once or twice". Let's pretend I just said "once" OK? In all honesty that's the schedule I set in PrefectDisk (and SpeedDisk before that).

No but I never said I neglect other routine maintenance tasks. Those are your words, not mine.
Let's get something else straight here. There are MANY different types of users. Some could probably go for a year with out a defrag [waves to Mom] some would do well to do it every week or two.
I'm not stating this as fact and I'm no expert. I'm just trying to make a point.
I personally spend 16-18 hours a day, 7 days a week on this computer. Much of that is web surfing (I've read that cache files are infamous for causing fragmentation).
I'm a download junkie. And much of what I download is software. Most of that is installed right away (I've read that is a major contributor to fragmentation) and often times I turn around an uninstall it shortly thereafter.
I'm an OS junkie. I frequently install new operating systems, uninstall others. Move stuff around on various drives and so forth.
Now maybe I'm nuts, but I guess I just assumed I'm the type of user that needs to pay more attention to system maintenance (compared to your "average Joe).
But apparently I'm an ill-informed idiot, so who knows.... Scott angrykeyboarder.com
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:29:49 -0000, "Robert Moir" spake thusly:

What's really bizarre about this whole discussion is how you take what people say, twist it around and then blow it out of proportion.
Scott angrykeyboarder.com
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:52:49 -0500, "Richard Urban" spake thusly: