zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Microsoft_blames_users_for_OneCare_fiasco/0,130061733,339274293,00.htm

with all due respect, check your facts, that link you provided to that article does not place any blame on the users. You have misunderstood the article, or maybe grasping at straws to discredit vista. G
"kirk jim"

G,
I'd have to disagree with you about the article. It certainly does claim Microsoft blamed users, as is obvious by the article's title "Microsoft blames users for OneCare fiasco." However I agree with you that the article doesn't seem to list any facts to back up that claim. I also agree with you that Kirk Jim seems to be on quite an anti-Microsoft rant in the forum here today.
I hope this helps, Steve C. Orr, MCSD, MVP, CSM, ASPInsider SteveOrr.net

Well, you can't blame gxs, after all kirk has been found to completely NOT UNDERSTAND things he's read.
However in this case, "but today insisted users were primarily at fault."
Either way, the customers WERE at fault.
So?
If you delete an important file from your quarantine then YOU ARE AT FAULT. Kind of a no "crap" statement.

"Steve C. Orr [MCSD, MVP, CSM, ASP Insider]" wrote in message

It certainly DOES place blame on the users (and so do I).
"Microsoft has since released a patch but today insisted users were primarily at fault."
Tom Lake

Justin wrote:

Erm, Outlook, Outlook Express and OneCare are MS products. One would think that OneCare could be trained not to flag files from MS products. If it's falsely flagging files that it should *know* are not viruses, what else is it falsely flagging!?
Course, being as you are an MS fanboi, it's normal for you to blame the user and not the MS' All Mighty programs.
Alias

Tom Lake wrote:

You blame the user for false positives from MS' crappy software? Please explain.
Alias

No, I blame the user for deleting important files. MS software only quarantined those files. The user had to have deleted them. You can't blindly rely on any technology. Just look at all the "Driver puts car in river due to satnav fault" stories popping up! People have driven down what was obviously a closed road or cowpath just because their navigation system told them to. One thing I teach users is, NEVER DELETE ANYTHING UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT DOES.
Tom Lake

Tom Lake wrote:

So you do blame the user for MS' crappy software flagging MS products? Note, I wrote "flagging", not "deleting".
Alias

Erm, one would think that if you want to bash other users you'd learn some hard facts.
Files from Microsoft can become infect with viruses.
What was happening here was that OneCare was detecting a virus in the e-mail folders and instead of handling the single e-mail it moved the folder into quarantine.
It still required a manual deletion order from the user, it will not automatically delete those files.
It has since been fixed.
Also the article is misleading, MS wasn't blaming users for the OneCare issue, they said that if the file was deleted it wasn't by OneCare but by the user.
There's a big difference.
"Alias"

Shane Nokes wrote:

Please read for content, not what you think I wrote. I used the word "flag", not "delete".
Alias

my bad, i must have missed that quote :( G
"kirk jim"

I did read what you said but the main point that everyone was making was about the deletions.
Also it wasn't falsely flagging files.
The files that were flagged did indeed contain viruses, but in only part of the code.
OneCare did indeed make a mistake in flagging the entire file as opposed to just the code that was necessary to be deleted.
But to say the files were falsely flagged/deleted/whatever is incorrect.
"Alias"

"Alias"

Shane already pointed out exactly where you went wrong. You made the ASSumption that the files where falsely flagged and they where not.
Additionally, I would not expect MS to develop an app that could properly open those file and delete from within it. I wouldn't want that app to accidentally blow up my DB files.
Quarantine the files. Let me un-quarantine them and if I so choose to setup a rule to leave those files alone. Or, only report the issue and let me deal with it.

"Alias"

Just to end this branch properly and not on the note of your incorrect information. As you were told by Shane those files were NOT falsely flagged. They were flagged because they where infected. If a MS files becomes infected you want MS to do nothing about it because it's a MS file? Are you nuts?

Shane Nokes wrote:

Not me, nor the article.

Flagging the entire .pst file and the entire .dbx message store is what? Cool?

Yeah, the entire .pst file, for instance. And if a clueless user trusted NoCare, their entire Outlook message store is gone.
Alias

Justin wrote:

Erm, the ENTIRE .pst file was quarantined. Please reread the article where it wrote, and I quote:
"Several users claimed OneCare seemed to be responsible for either deleting or quarantining the .pst or .dbx files on their PC."
Microsoft goes on to admit the flagging:
"To delete whole archive files, such as those .pst and .dbx files that were erroneously being quarantined by OneCare prior to the fix issued last weekend, users would have had to manually delete the files from the quarantine dialog," a Microsoft US spokesperson told ZDNet Australia."
Alias

Justin wrote:

LOL! The ENTIRE .pst file was flagged, not the individual email messages that carried the virus. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water! Just because you find a rat in the basement doesn't mean you should blow up the entire house!
Alias

"Justin"

As much as I hate to get involved with the love triangle you, Shane, and Alias have going on- regardless of what Windows OneCare actually did or didn't do, I would never recommend it to anyone I know and can think of at least seven AV programs that are better than OneCare.
-Michael

I note that while you attempted to once again you used circular logic to make yourself sound smart.
While at the same time you didn't even address my last remark because you knew posting an argument against it would have been a downright lie.
Nice to see you have no ability to form an actual argument.
Also just something else that should be noted.
This didn't happen in every case to every user, it only happened in certain situations and only affected a small number of users.
I myself use OneCare and did not have this issue occur.
"Alias"

Yes and those AV programs are at what revision currently?
OneCare is only at a 1.5 product revision currently and is in constant testing and update.
As issues are found they are sealed quickly, as opposed let us say Symantec or McAfee products where only definitions and the like are updated.
OneCare allows the entire application to have full updates.
"MICHAEL"

No, but you could have a pest specialist "bomb" the house.
That typically means leaving for a few days while the place clears out.
That would sound a little extreme to someone who doesn't know about the process, but not to someone who wants to make sure their house is fully cleared.
"Alias"

Shane Nokes wrote:

So does Avast and it's rated higher than NoCare.
Alias

Please, don't bore me with your lame attempt at making excuses for Microsoft.
All the AV vendors had to do major rewrites of their code to get their products to work with Vista. NOD32 and others are working well with Vista now.
Not to mention, as far as XP and Vista are concerned, OneCare should have a significant advantage in being stable and effective- access to source code. One would think that the same company that makes the OS could at least produce an AV program that would work properly and be at the top of its class. They are far from that.
-Michael
"Shane Nokes"

"MICHAEL" wrote:

see lawsuits arise. That said, OneCare does have a ways to go to become a top notch program. It works well for many people, but it does miss some malware and scanning can be rather time consuming. -steve Stephen Boots MVP Windows Live Windows Live OneCare Forum Moderator sboots mvps.org

Once again how long has Avast been out?
What revision is the application you're now using?
Was it a "perfect" program when it came out originally?
"Alias"

OneCare does NOT have a significant advantage.
The OneCare product is NOT allowed to use any non-publicly disclosed API's.
Legally they are bound to use only the same exact interfaces into the OS that other vendors have.
In fact you know the huge stink that Symantec and McAfee made about PatchGuard?
Not even OneCare is allowed to get around PatchGuard.
So that means MS takes their own medicine when it comes to the decisions they make regarding security.
Also once again I'm not making an excuse for MS.
Hey Michael I've got an idea. How about you go install Windows 98 and run a 1.5 revision of Norton or McAfee AV.
Or even better, how about using revision 1.5 of AVG, or AVAST.
I'm sure they'll work just perfect, right? right?
Hey, why is it so quiet now.
"MICHAEL"

"StephenB"

Do you really believe that, Stephen?

I do commend Microsoft on how they license OneCare... would be wonderful if they offered the same deal for Vista. :-)
But, Microsoft does have far more resources than any of the other AV companies, more than all of them combined together- they need to step up, spend some money, hire more talented people, and make a better product. Period. It's not like Microsoft built OneCare from scratch, they bought GeCAD and designed from there. Ironically, part of OneCare's problem seems to be GeCAD's code.
Perhaps, Microsoft would be better off if they stopped buying and/or bullying/stealing what they want, and actually did build something from scratch. Why in the world would the planet's most profitable software company with the massive amount of resources that it has, have to buy an AV company and then jerry-rig it with their own stuff to make it work? Why not just make your own from brand new code? They did the same with Windows Defender, the bought Giant and slapped their name on it. What happened to originality? I reckon, with a $40 billion cash reserve, they can just buy someone else's originality. :-/ I hope Microsoft never tries to buy Eset (NOD32) and then fudge it up. Of course, hopefully, Symantec stays away from Eset, too.
One exception to this, the XBOX. Even though the XBOX isn't making money, it will. Both the XBOX and XBOX 360 are good examples of building something from scratch and making a dam fine product. XBOX Live is way ahead of anything Sony or Nintendo have. Seems, Microsoft can do it... if they really want to.
Take care,
Michael
news.zdnet.co.uk/security/0,1000000189,39286351,00.htm OneCare should not have been rolled out Asked about these problems, Arno Edelmann, Microsoft's European business security product manager, told ZDNet UK on Thursday that the code itself has pieces missing.
"Usually Microsoft doesn't develop products, we buy products. It's not a bad product, but bits and pieces are missing," said Edelmann.
The problem lies with a core technology of OneCare, the GeCAD antivirus code, and how it interacts with Microsoft mailservers. According to Edelmann, the Microsoft updates and mailserver infrastructure do not harmonise.
"It's a problem with the updates, and it's a problem with the implementation," said Edelmann.
If mail is received from a server running Exchange 2007, users are unlikely to encounter problems. However, if mail is received from servers running Exchange 2000 or 2003, the likelihood of quarantining is high, said Edelmann.
"OneCare is a new product - they shouldn't have rolled it out when they did, but they're fixing the problems now," said Edelmann.
According to the security manager, security is only a small part of what Microsoft does, suggesting it does not have as much security expertise as established security vendors.
"Microsoft is not a security company. Security is important, but it's just a little part of Microsoft," said Edelmann.

-Michael

I find it hard to believe that the same company that makes the OS seems unable to make a better AV. I don't care what you say about some supposed legalities.
OneCare isn't a product written from scratch. It is a product based on GeCAD. It's as much a 1.5 product as Vista is. Vista is based on something else (NT/Server 2003), just like OneCare (GeCAD). Neither are brand new. Both have had beta periods. Both should be better than they are. OneCare should have had a longer beta period. Better yet, Microsoft should have actually built their own AV from scratch.
By the way, NOD32 is at a measly 2.7, and compared to OneCare- NOD32 performs like a 10. A tiny company called Eset, absolutely blows away the 12th most profitable company in the world (7th in the US). Microsoft even tried jump starting their AV aspirations by buying GeCAD. They've got work to do.
-Michael
"Shane Nokes"

"Shane N