Since Vista has been released this newsgroup has deteriorated from a place where people get help to a place where Linux, Mac, and even previous versions of Windows trolls endlessly post diatribes about how bad Vista is. There are always a few trolls in every newsgroup but this group in particular seems to have far more than normal. I can only come to the conclusion that these people are somehow threatened by Vista. Why else would they feel the need to denigrate it with such vehemence? It would be much easier to ignore it and continue using their favourite OS. If Vista is really that bad the marketplace will reject it. We only need to look at Windows Me to see this is true. My question to all the trolls is: Why is Vista so threatening to you?
Kerry Brown Microsoft MVP - Shell/User vistahelp.ca

I've been using it for a few days and, after initial disappointment (for the wrong reasons), I think it is fantastic!
I am particularly impressed with the backup and partitioning utilities and consider the usability to be a considerable advance over XP..
MPH
"Kerry Brown"

"Kerry Brown"

I hope I'm not a troll, but I have a suggestion:
I suspect that the problem is that Vista is a compromise solution.
On one hand there are the computer hobbyists, who like to have 100% control over their machine, and Vista appears to take that away from them in things like 'automatic upgrades', 'automatic driver installation' and a defrag which is best run in the background and gives little feedback on what it is doing (Does anyone know if it can defragment metadata, for instance?).
At the other extreme are those people who think a computer should operate like a TV. Some intial setting up (taking not more than 10 minutes) and from then on, it just works, with no further user intervention.
I'm sure that many people are between these extremes, but in a kind of spectrum from one extreme to the other.
Vista does what it does. It satisfies the TV/appliance people to some extent, but they soon become frustrated when some needed driver doesn't appear automatically. It satisfies the hobbyists to some extent, but they become irritated by what they see as nannying behaviour.
I'm sure that Microsoft has done its best to satisfy as many people as possible. But in answer to your question, I think that what is essentially a unified approach is going to annoy a lot of people. (Yes I do know there are a few different versions, but the differences are not the 'spectrum' of minor differences which will suit everyone's particular requirements).
Personally, I'm a hobbyist, with plenty of time on my hands (I'm retired) and I am enjoying finding out about Vista. It is fairly solid on my system, and I am looking forward to the time (hopefully in a few weeks) when the last device driver is developed, and everything is working properly.)
John

Kerry Brown wrote:

My reading is that it's the kinder-geek brigade. You know, the ones who exhibit hyperactive, childish excitement at the announcement of a new OS - pissing their pants in anticipation. They pre-order 12 months in advance - and get shafted on the price (I think admen call it 'creaming off') which is held high for the first six weeks. This of course, sets things up for a massive tumble. Having foregone the PS3 they'd promised themselves (to pay for the damn thing) and swallowing the mountain of marketing hype - they're expecting nothing less than the World. Any little thing goes wrong and they throw a major hissy fit. They bought first-buyer's bragging rights and now they've got nothing to brag about. Indignant proto-geek throws dummy out of the pram.
It would be much easier to ignore it and

Hi Kerry,
I'm not sure that people feel 'threatened' (good use of stuff learned in Pysch 101 there, by the way :> ) by Vista as much as they might be trying to warn people to save their money and not blow it on an O/S that's not yet quite ready for prime time.
You mention Window ME and how the marketplace rejected it. Well, the poor schmucks who did upgrade to Window ME back then lost less than $100 to upgrade to a lousy O/S.
Now, perhaps, people are advising others who MIGHT be considering shelling out a LOT more money for Vista upgrades to save both their money.....and their sanity.
Alan
"Kerry Brown"

"Kerry Brown" wrote in news:#N3MYlbWHHA.4384 TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl:

Part of the problem Microsoft bought on themselves. The anti-piracy features (SPP) are quite annoying and now volume licensing users have to deal with it. There was also a big deal over the one time transfer of Windows Vista until Microsoft backed down after complaints.
Perhaps this explains it?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Windows_Vista
Adam

Kerry Brown wrote:

Threatened? How can an OS threaten anyone?
Alias

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:18:16 -0800, "Kerry Brown" wrote:

How many trolls have MVP behind their name?
For any MVP to even start a thread like this is SHAMEFUL and I assure your will likely get the attention of someone in Redmond.
You see the more experienced usenet posters,(obviously not you) have seen it all before and far more clearly than those evangelizing for Vista, which seems to be a requirement to the current crop of Microsoft shills, oops... I mean a MVP's and those wishing to become one.

My answer to your question, more your childish and totally inappropriate rant, is why can't you be objective?
Let me explain life to you Kerry, since you seem to have a distorted view where the Microsoft sun always shines brightly.
1. Most people that visit this newsgroup likely are already Windows users and either already have purchased Vista or are considering doing so.
2. People that have already purchased Vista like to discuss issues that they have run into both installing and using Vista. The people that are sitting on the fence and trying to make up their minds if they are going to upgrade now or wait awhile appreciate those that have already taken the plunge discussing what problems they've run into and also what features they like and those they don't like.
3. It may come as a shock to some MVP's who are often seen as apologists, but I can tell you Microsoft actually encourages a open discussion of its products in these newsgroups as opposed to MVP's simply being cheer leaders.
4. Vista has flaws. All new versions of Windows do, always have, always will. That's par for course for all software, more so for operating systems. Simply because experienced users point out problems doesn't mean they don't like Vista or that they are attacking it or are somehow "jealous" of it or feel threatened by it. That's really over the top Kerry.
5. Your job and obviously you and some other MVP's have forgot, isn't to blindly support Microsoft or cheer for Vista and label those that raise real issues as trolls. Your function is TO HELP people. All too often the same MVP's rant, rave and look down on posters, who are as I said previously mostly Microsoft customers.
I can assure you Microsoft executives (I know some) do NOT appreciate MVP's running amok. In short what I'm reminding you of, remember your place. You're just a volunteer. You are not a employee and you're not expected to just be a apple polisher.
Be objective and try to help people if you can. If you can't, maybe its time for you and other uptight MVP's also showing signs of stress to take a break, because it sounds like you suffering from burn-out.
There will always be somebody that knows as much likely more to pick up the slack, so no, you won't be missed and I won't be missed either when I get tired of posting. That's just life. I understand these things, apparently you don't or have fogetten.

"Alan"

a new PC about 5 years ago, and a copy of Win98 would have been the same price. Upgrading would have been a waste. I don't think anyone should be upgrading to Vista at this time, but it seems to be the way to go if you're buying a new PC, though I'd try to wait as long as possible up to a year or two on buying a new PC with Vista until the patches and newer drivers are released.

Kerry Brown wrote:

I can only guess Kerry, and speak for myself.
Personally I am horrified at the price. Whilst most things IT have to some extent come down is price, the cost of a Microsoft operating system has grown from around 10-15% of the price of a consumer PC to around 40-50 of the same consumer type PC. In the same time (around 10 years) Microsoft products have become less and less compliant with industry standards and more and more compliant with Microsoft's own proprietary standards. The licencing terms have also become more and more restrictive. Personally I am afraid of Microsoft. I used to be one of their most ardent supporters, and still have to admit that their products are exemplary from the user perspective. Having said that I am actively seeking alternatives to both the operating system and the office suite.
I am doing this because Microsoft is not being realistic about their pricing (making 75c profit for every dollar spent on an operating system sounds just a little excessive to me) and I can not justify this to myself or others. Add to this fact that Microsoft is incapable of offering a licence agreement that is decipherable to anyone, including their own staff and we have a shambles. I have seen two web casts by Microsoft employees that contradict on licencing issues in the past week alone.
Vista is the culmination of many things to many people. To me it is like a final insult in a 10 year old gripe. The splitting of the O/s into a smorgasboard of slightly different flavours is just the icing on the cake. Aero is the big selling point to home users. But will it run? Even on that new Dell you just bought? Which Vista does the average person want, need, use?
The advertising of "the wow starts now" is perhaps the most accurate I have seen. The average response is;
1 WOW they want how much for that! 2 WOW which one should I buy? 3 WOW I have no idea! 4 WOW better just buy a new computer! The sub $1000 dell advertised comes with vista and the O/S is nearly a $1000 by itself. I am sure that Dell know better than I do.
Matt

A prime example of what Kerry was talking about.
"Adam Albright"

Kerry,
I do agree with you that this newsgroup has become a breeding place for trolls. I come here to learn as much as I can about Vista. It's amazing to me all that I have gained from this newsgroup! But lately when I visit it's like signing in for the daily whine! I find myself skipping any thread that even remotely sounds like a complaint.
I like Vista and really have had very minimal problems with it (ATI). I do realize that some people are not ready for Vista; either with their PC capabilities or their mind-set. I think it's the right OS for most of the world. You know; the people that just want to turn on and go! To the others; just wait if your not sure or patient. It will only get better!
always learning
"Kerry Brown" wrote:

"Alias"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:04:14 +0100, Alias wrote:

As anybody that spends just 30 minutes in any Microsoft "support" group knows those with MVP behind their name are often:
1. Way too often ill tempered.
2. Always trying to be Net cops.
3. Generally apologists for Microsoft.
4. If they bother to "help" its often cut and paste useless drivel or incomplete or technically inaccurate.
5. On some never ending ego trip, uptight and defensive.
They are fun to play with thought. <wink>
The reality is MVP's often feel threatend from the legions of posters that pop in and out of these groups that aren't and would never want to be MVP's that usually known why more then they do.
Sorry, about time somebody said it.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:18:16 -0800, Kerry Brown wrote:

The source of this groups problems appears to be this guy
-> Roy Schestowitz <-
schestowitz.com
groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=xFvp2hoAAAAb4mOWpyzVaW0aq-bp9NGnjj6y1UsWUZHxqbrtGgkPow&hl=en
It appears that he has ramped up his somewhat prolific posting habits shortly before the release of Vista and he has been on some kind of a campaign for Linux and against Vista.
He is also behind the Boycott Novell because they signed a deal with Microsoft campaign.
boycottnovell.com/
Some people claim he is being paid by Microsoft, I don't really know but we Linux users have him filtered so we don't have to read his noise.
Kevin Wilcox

my question is who is behind the encouraging the posts.
I would suspect the vendors who are screaming long and high about being locked out of vista. you can get agitators for any cause/
mikeyhsd sport.rr.commikeyhsd sport.rr.com
"Kerry Brown" Since Vista has been released this newsgroup has deteriorated from a place where people get help to a place where Linux, Mac, and even previous versions of Windows trolls endlessly post diatribes about how bad Vista is. There are always a few trolls in every newsgroup but this group in particular seems to have far more than normal. I can only come to the conclusion that these people are somehow threatened by Vista. Why else would they feel the need to denigrate it with such vehemence? It would be much easier to ignore it and continue using their favourite OS. If Vista is really that bad the marketplace will reject it. We only need to look at Windows Me to see this is true. My question to all the trolls is: Why is Vista so threatening to you?
Kerry Brown Microsoft MVP - Shell/User vistahelp.ca

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:33:58 -0500, "Mike G" wrote:

Did I mention there are also a lot of sheep in this newsgroup that blindly follow anything some MVP says no matter what?
Here's a radical thought, I like to decide things for myself. Try it sometime. A real eye opening experience.

Way to go John! Excellent comments.
"John E"

Adam
You goad and taunt..
"Adam Albright"

Mike Hall MS MVP Windows Shell/User msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/

....and example #2
"Adam Albright"

"Alias"

That's actually a good choice of words Alias... since it's the Microsofties that feel "threatened" anytime ANYone disses their beloved company or products. They have an surreal emotional attachment to this software, and they tend to react as though you were bad-mouthing one of their kids. It's fun and entertaining to watch, but scary at the same time. To most people, an OS is just a tool, not unlike a stapler or a can opener - it's a tool to allow you to get some form of work done - period. To the zombies, it is sooo much more.
Funny too, that Kerry chose to state "Why else would they feel the need to denigrate it with such vehemence?" Uhm, I could ask a similar question - Why do the zombies feel such a need to defend it with such religious zealotry? Geezus, you got people in here so over the top that they're inventing marketing slogans on MS's behalf and using them in their sigs... My Personal Favorite: <shouted with little girl glee for effect> "Windows VISTA! Become Part of The Legacy!" all that's missing is the pom poms. sheesh give me a break, or better yet, a barf bag.
I would bet anything, ANYTHING, that there are people in this group sporting tattoos of MS products or logos.
Personally, I think the very people you call trolls are only doing so, simply because of how EASY it is, to get a rise out of you toads.
Oh, and to the OP, is this isn't considered "trolling" I don't know what is....